Support for local figthers

[||§§||Hand_O_Death]

Now I know everyone (in the US at least) pretty much supports our troops abroad whether you are for or against the war, but what about supporting local fighters of injustice. I am not saying the Police put their life on the line as often as soldiers in middle east, but the respect of our own president should not be something that is gained or lost depending on which of his friends gets arrested.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090724/ap_on_re_us/us_obama_harvard_scholar_police;_ylt=AhzXMR3xuTX1y Pw4xc2YMBV34T0D;_ylu=X3oDMTNpZDExb2tzBGFzc2V0A2FwL zIwMDkwNzI0L3VzX29iYW1hX2hhcnZhcmRfc2Nob2xhcl9wb2x pY2UEY3BvcwMzBHBvcwMxMQRwdANzZWN0aW9uc19jb2tlBHNlY wN5bl90b3Bfc3RvcnkEc2xrA29iYW1hcmVtYXJrbw--

Now I know how political post have gone in the past on this site, so I am saying this now. Any and all views will be respected, but if you are not acting like adults, it will count against you in the long run, so be mindful before you hit that "Post" button.

[||§§||Kit]

Wow. There were just so many things wrong with that...

I'll be the first one to openly admit that I am not an Obama supporter. In fact, I detest him and his politics. I think I cried when he was elected President. He surely is showing his true colors (no pun intended) now, huh?

I just think that it's really sad that many accused of wrongdoing will pull the race card. Furthermore, why was Obama asked about this incident during a health care conference?

What's wrong with the situation is that the police didn't arrest Gates for being black. They didn't arrest him for "breaking into his own house." They arrested him for disorderly conduct. I am really upset that the Mayor even offered him an apology. I don't care how much of a public figure Gates is.

I also wholeheartedly agree with Lt. Wilson's comment that it doesn't matter if it were Obama or McCain making the statement that was made. The fact is that there are race relations issues in our country and the leader of the country, I don't even care if he's purple, needs to be sensitive to that fact.

Unfortunately, I believe that it is instances like these that will stymie positive race relations instead of fostering them in our volatile society.

[evildick]

Obama's public criticism that Cambridge officers "acted stupidly" when they arrested black Harvard professor Henry Louis Gates Jr. could make it harder for police to work with people of color.

Now that is a racist comment if I hear it.

People of Color, are people. Be black skinned, white skinned or blue skinned.

People of Color is racist in itself in my opinion.

It pains me to see that in this day and age, most people are still racists, even if they don't admit it, to any other race not theirs.

In my opinion, Obama was mad that a friend was arrested in his opinion injustly, but he should have kept his mouth shut on TV until he had cooled down. It could happen to anyone, and his only error, was saying what he said on public TV.

The United States has a long history of racism (sadly) and with Obama's election, it will start to fade out and bring all races more close as they see that America in the most part wants to be for everyone and everyone can be what they want without fear of being discriminated for being of a different race (in my opinion).

He surely is showing his true colors (no pun intended) now, huh?

That comment in my opinion is a tad bit racist. Maybe you could have left it out. And I have nothing against you. You can say what you want, but don't say your not racist and then make a racist comment. (In my opinion)

Some will disagree with me, but its my opinion and I'm sticking too it.

I have love for everyone be you of any race.

[||§§||Dr.H]

I think the point is that our country are tried very hard for many years to fight racism and now we are beginning to realize it has blown up in our faces. Sadly there are people who are still racist due to their upbringing and there is nothing that came be done to change that but now we commonly see what is referred to as "reverse racism" and a small amount of people people using the "race card" every time they get in trouble whether it is justified or not.

I think people are starting to feel that no one should be treated differently based on the color of their skin which is how a true non racist community would be. It is horrible what has happened to Black people in this countries past and I see how the government has tried to make amends but when do you transition? There is no one alive who has has had a parent or grandparent who was a slave though I'm sure many people have experienced racism. Many things are done to so call level the playing field which is supposedly white biased, there are many scholarships, funds, programs, clubs, foundations etc for Black and Hispanic American and much race pride.
This is suppose to be because everything in the world is already made to support the whites but what do you do when everything is unbiased and no longer made to support the white community which I believe is where we are heading? Then all of these programs become racist in themselves because they do something based on the color of your skin.

To give a job to a white person over a minority even if he is more qualified is call racism? There are no supporting programs for whites and you are not allowed to feel proud to be white because it is racist and you will be grouped with the KKK or Nazis...

The fact is that the world is still very messed up and there is racism against all colors including white no matter what. We need to find a way to stop it all and make everyone equal but all that seems to be happening is we're pushing a pendulum... sigh.

I can easily state that I've never felt racist, many people who are say they aren't but I've just never had the feeling in me so I know it is true and it shows how far our country has come. I'm sure the fact that I even made any observations about race in America will have people call me racist though. The country is so touchy on the subject that you aren't even allowed to talk about it.
It has sometimes become that
"White people are bad and racist no matter what and Black or Hispanic people can not be racist because of who they are no matter what they say or do." I understand people feeling they have that right due them but when is enough enough?

I'm not sure if my post has crossed the boundary of what is suitable to talk about on the forum and if I feel our community is not ready to talk about such issues without getting defensive or angry I will delete my post because I mean not to upset anyone.

[evildick]

||§§||Dr.H:

I truely understand your point and agree with it. If you say "I'm proud to be white", your called a Nazi and if you say "I'm proud to be black" nothing. The problem is, if you get rid of the those scholarships, funds, programs, clubs, foundations etc for Black and Hispanic Americans, they will rebel. I understand that they have there rights and have been wronged for many years, but until all these race "things" are abolished, everything will stay the same.
I think we must look at how far South Africa has come in only a few decades. They have learned to forgive each other and are always striving for all to be equal. That is what we need in the whole world. FORGIVENESS. If everyone forgave one another, we could start with a clean slate. But I doubt that will happen in my lifetime, although I wish it would. It all starts with the parents, if they educated their children not to be racist and made sure, then maybe the next generation will not even think about race, heck they would even need it in their vocabulary.
If I had a magic lamp, and a genie came out and gave me 3 wishes. I would wish for just that, that the word "race" and all it means, didn't exist or need to exist.
I wish more people like you existed and maybe we could save this crazy world from itself. We must envision a future where everyone is equal and make it so.

The only other point I have to make (and I am of the white race even though it dosen't matter) is that if I was in Obama's shoes, I would have also thought that the police officer acted stupidly. The Harverd Professor was an old man with a cane and identified himself as the owner of the house in question, and he was still arrested. Maybe he was more racist then the Police officer in question, but that I know of, you cannot arrest someone for saying "your racist" even if its wrong.
I might not agree with his arrest, but I also don't think he should have called the officer racist without any proof.

[||§§||Dr.H]

Your right we are pretty much stuck. Someone will always feel bitter against another person if they feel the other person has an advantage due to their skin color no matter what that color is.
There is no way to get rid of the problem in our current society. The only way I can think of is to make very firm and strict laws so that no one is judged on their color for anything and have a specific law system to deal with all the true and untrue claims. Then find a way to remove as much as you can from the media when it comes to race. All they do is pour gas on the fire and enforce the "poor me" ideas.

All of the misc race specific organizations were very important in this country because we were racily segregated at one time and Black or Hispanics were not allowed in certain schools, stores, buildings or clubs. If they wanted to have fairness they had to make their own from scratch, it was a liberating but terrible time. Now race segregation is illegal and it is against the law to not allow someone access due to their race. The only problem is that now there are still places that are minority only so how do we advance our culture past that point?

It may sound like I'm picking on minorities but that is far from what I'm trying to say. My basic idea is to have a clean slate for everyone and remove all race based things across the board. I don't see anyway to do this though without making things worse..

I can see the problem with the police officer being somewhere in the middle of what we heard. I'm sure he was doing his job and may have been to firm for the event or just doing what he is trained to do. I can't say if he is racist or not but police officers are constantly be slammed with racism at every turn these days so I can also see that the professor playing the race card was the wrong thing to do since I'm sure the police officer has about had it with all that crap.

The proper thing to do would be for the man to show his proper right to access the building and then if he felt his was unjustly treated to take the officers badge number and file a report.

[||§§||GhostDog]

I think you both make good points and I think your hearts are in the right place. And I agree with you guys on the point that it's OK to be proud to be black but it's not OK to be proud as a white person. But I also think it's easy to say 'fogive and forget' when you haven't felt oppressed or racially profiled. I know some people are going to say that these things are not factors in this day and age, but I don't think that's entirely true either. While those of us having this discussion might frown on racism, there are plenty of others who would gladly give an opportunity to a nice white kid over some other color that they might frown on. Or a cop who finds himself pulling over way more black kids than white ones.

The point I'm trying to make is that it's an issue that is deeply affected by perspective. I believe some minorities have been wounded in ways that are going to take a long time to forget and a little empathy can go a long way when problems arise. Also, it takes fair-minded people on both sides of the issue to level the playing field. But empathy and fairness are not always easy to come by... no matter who you are.

[||§§||Dr.H]

I agree with most of what you say Ghost. You can never walk in someone else's shoes and that makes perspective very difficult. Oppression, racial profiling and jobs by color are all very wrong and not legal but near impossible to prove or enforce. Which leaves us time, since it will take much of it to find any answers. I think we are making many proper moves in the right direction at the same time we are taking many harmful and wrong ones.

[||§§|| Sven The Slayer]

Lets not forget that all you have to do is spit on an officer to be charged with assault on a police officer. So if the professor is on or off public grounds making enough of a fuse while being asked to calm down the cops have every right to take him into custody to cool himself down. I'm also certain if two white guys were in front of a house slamming on the door the officer would have investigated, and he was only responding to a call. This means that somebody else saw the two men trying to break into a house.

-------------------------

There is only one "race" when will people learn that. There is no Black race, Hispanic race, White race, we are all the "HUMAN" race. Most people who pull the race card and call somebody else racist are usually racist themselves even if they will not admit to it. There just is that mentality that only white people can be racist even though all the minority only programs and systems out there are inherently racist if they turn down anybody for not being a minority.

You just cannot give equal opportunity to a minority. They are a minority! There are fewer of them so why should there be more or an equal number in any workplace or school? Nobody should be overlooked for the color of their skin. A well enough off black student is more likely to get a scholarship then a wretchedly poor white one if he just goes to the united negro collage fund.

I think one of the worst things is that a lot of black people only perpetuate the stereotypes and add fuel to the racism problem. By this I mean the "thug" life style. If they would take the effort to better their lives, stop blaming the "man" for keeping them down, and not spend all their money on drugs and alloy wheels...

[||§§||Eraser]

We are all a little racist, some just more then others.

[||§§||Foehammer]

I've been reading through the different posts and I have to agree with most all of you. I have to say though, I do not believe the officer was wrong at all, or racist at all. He simply responded to a call, and the Professor was giving him a hard time. That is why they always say, just be polite and patient with a officer, Do what they say for you to do, and move on from that.

This just shows how far Obamarama will ride the "I am black, do not hate me." train. It is obvious he is going to stick up for the Professor, a nice percentage of his supporters and voters are also apart of the African American community.

What really pisses me off, is that Obama has to take his finger and shove it down every single different kind of problem's throat. He cannot stay out of the little things, even more so when it has involves something like this. What is the point in worrying about a officer arresting a black Professor from Harvard because he was yelling at the officer and not calming down. Doesn't he have more important things to take care of and worry about? Isn't their terrorists in the world that needs hunting, or a health care system to be reformed. Instead of worrying about the African American man that got arrested because he was most likely giving a officer a hard time, shouldn't he be worried about the economy?

I still cannot believe he was elected as our president.

Even though I have had my fair share of run ins with the police, I will still continue to support them and everything they do. Sure, there are a couple of problematic ones, but it isn't smart to run around and calling every police officer a racist retard. Eventually, they won't want to work for a President who calls them that...

[||§§||zezura]

i've been reading through the different posts and i have to agree with most all of you. I have to say though, i do not believe the officer was wrong at all, or racist at all. He simply responded to a call, and the professor was giving him a hard time. That is why they always say, just be polite and patient with a officer, do what they say for you to do, and move on from that.

This just shows how far obamarama will ride the "i am black, do not hate me." train. It is obvious he is going to stick up for the professor, a nice percentage of his supporters and voters are also apart of the african american community.

What really pisses me off, is that obama has to take his finger and shove it down every single different kind of problem's throat. He cannot stay out of the little things, even more so when it has involves something like this. What is the point in worrying about a officer arresting a black professor from harvard because he was yelling at the officer and not calming down. Doesn't he have more important things to take care of and worry about? Isn't their terrorists in the world that needs hunting, or a health care system to be reformed. Instead of worrying about the african american man that got arrested because he was most likely giving a officer a hard time, shouldn't he be worried about the economy?

I still cannot believe he was elected as our president.

Even though i have had my fair share of run ins with the police, i will still continue to support them and everything they do. Sure, there are a couple of problematic ones, but it isn't smart to run around and calling every police officer a racist retard. Eventually, they won't want to work for a president who calls them that...

qft

[||§§||Hand_O_Death]

You all realize that it does not matter that he lived there because he did not get arrested for trespassing or burglary right? That was the inital call and he got arrested for breach of peace for being a dick with a big chip on his shoulder. 2 big egos collided and one of them went to jail, hapens a lot. Many people talk themselves into getting arrest, MANY.

And I also truely believe that the Sgt was not racist due to the fact that when former NBA Celtics player Reggie Lewis collapsed from a heart condition (and unfortunately later died), this same Sgt (who was an officer at the time) game him CPR immediately until medics could arrive. Police are not required to do CPR and are pretty much told not to for legal reasons unless you really feel like you could help someone, so that alone shows me that he did not see a black man collapse, he just saw a man and did everything her could (including put his own mouth over that mans) to try and save him.

Does the incident sound stupid? (guy gets arrested at his own house on a burglary call... yea, but that is why you never strictly believe media on anything, because it makes better headlines that "Dick Proffessor attempts to use race card to get cops to leave his house". but once again, just my opinion on how we opperate as a society

[evildick]

All good points, but I just don't understand all this Obama hate.
WTF. You want another Bush for christ's sake?
I sure as hell don't.

[||§§||Dr.H]

Lol we definitely don't want another Bush but at the same time what we got was someone just as bad if not worse in other areas. He's done absolutely nothing to help our country and in fact has and is trying to do more damage faster than any President I can remember. Hence his popularity rating dropping to around or under %50...
You don't raise taxes, the deficit and instate huge costly programs while the economy is in shambles.. any idiot can tell you that makes sense.

It was a great thing for our society to elect a man with African heritage to the Presidency, we just happen to get the wrong guy. It was equally great to see women running for President and Vice President. Hillary may be hardcore but I would have rather seen her win the nomination.

Heck don't get me wrong, he's probably a nice guy who's smart, handsome, educated, well spoken, and charismatic to many people. On the other hand he is one of the most extreme and socialistic Presidents ever.
People who love him in fanatical ways are most commonly uneducated about his political views those who like him but follow world and local politics are the reason for his drastic drop in the polls.

This is a guy who thinks American Pride is a bad phrase. He apologizes to these crazy middle eastern countries while he ridicules our best allies. There are a lot of countries out there that would love to see us fail but remember most of these countries are hypocritical and only care about themselves anyway. They don't want to help to world, they don't plan to donate food, money or help even on a small level compared to us and because we are open about our policies they ridicule us for the same things they do. They may blame us for causing war and deaths around the world but they barely do a thing if a dictator is found to be killing his own or other people. It's easy to say things but it's hard to stand up and do things. I for one don't want to hear any criticism from foreign countries unless they can prove that they do anything good for this world and just staying out of things and hiding your head in your own concerns doesn't count. The world is evil, greedy and selfish so open your eyes get use to it and stop apologizing for doing the best we can.

Some people don't understand whats wrong with socialism while others confuse socialism with communism. Yes socialism may sound good and seem fair and lovey dovey if the government is honest... but when compared to capitalism is doesn't work, let me repeat DOES NOT WORK lol :p. You may get it to work with some small countries in northern Europe to an extent but when it come's to the U.S there is just to much pushbacks, agendas, lobbyists and money being pushed around to even joke about it working. Though they know the word has a bad feel to Americans so they will call it everything but what it really plainly is.
It will start people thinking things are going to be ok until they realize that in fact all they did is give the Government complete control over us and our economy.
Even a good government can not be trusted and our founding fathers understood that and tried to protect us from what our current government is try to bypass buy using fear tactics to rush and push things by. Having us poor desparate, in trouble and needing the government is what they want. Rahm Emanuel Obamas White House Chief of staff said
, 'We're not going to miss the opportunity to take advantage of this crisis because we're going to do all the things we couldn't get done before." I'm not a Republican but I'm sure as heck going to side with them over what is coming right now. I think the Democrats know Obama is a one trick pony and he has almost no chance of winning again but they will use his views and popularity to push their agendas while they can.

Remember bad laws are easy to pass and darn near impossible to remove.

[evildick]

You make valid points.
But I ask you: Do you really any of the other candidates were better then Obama?
If I have to make a choice between one EVIL or another EVIL, I will always pick the lesser EVIL.
Give me a better candidate, and then I'll have a choice. Until then, I will still vote Obama. He promises change, and change can't happen over night. (Unless your a Dictator, Then you can do whatever the hell you want with no problems) Only time will tell if he completes some of his promises.
Most problems in America are from the old style society mentality. I'm American, and I love America, but times change and so should our mentality. How can a 16 year old drive a car or possess a firearm, if he can't smoke or drink until he's 21? How can 31% of the prison population (and raising) be for POSSESSION of marijuana? What kind of "liberal" society do we live in? Ask yourself: Where are the weapons of MASS Destruction in Iraq at that the Republicans claimed were their? Economy? Think World economy. Because the economy went to shit when Europe changed its money to Euros and the US invaded Iraq. Before that we were on to of the world (except for maybe Japan). If America hadn't invaded Iraq, we wouldn't be in the shit hole that we're in now. And that was because of the Republicans and a few Democrats. The Republicans want, more money for the rich and less for the poor. The excect opposite of what we should be doing. You say that we send aid to 3rd world nationes. Well how about sending them the means to help themselves also (Excactly what Obama suggested at the last International conference in Europe) Its easy to critizize the people in power, but look at what they are trying to accomplish. Bush didn't do shit for our nation, and he got voted TWICE (Stolen at that). Clinton got a blowjob and we almost impeached him. Bush lies to our faces and gets a happy RE-ELECTion. WTF? Has my country become that stupid and uncultured and uneducated that we don't even know where Spain is? Bush can pass all the shit ammendments without question and Obama's got the job to get shit on by our country now? When Bush was President, everyone was all happy and crap, now that he's gone, everyone says "I didnt vote or like him" and Obama's worse. During the Bush Administration, the News was CENSORED. You didnt see what really happened. My aunt came to visit me in Spain 3 years ago, and she couldnt believe what she saw on our news. She was like "They never showed us that back in the states". And maybe it was for the better that some things were censored, but I want the truth, not some crap invented by the Government. And the only one to blame is Bush. Not Obama. Obama didnt invade Iraq. Clinton didnt invade Serbia. Only the Bush's with their personal agendas are to blame. So go Hate Bush not Obama, who is trying to clean up the mess and trying to fix some problems we've had for many many years. Healthcare. HAHAHA Go to Cuba or France, and they treat you for free even if your not of their country. Here in America, we dont even treat Americans without an insurance policy. You want me to vote McCain because he was a Vietnam POW. NO. I vote the best caandidate not someone for pity. And whos to blame, Bush, the Republicans, and the dumbass media for all the lies they spread. You want real news, read a British newspaper, they aren't 100% amercian lies. They tell the real news.
But most of life sucks and ya gotta go with the flow. Well not me. I say what i feel and feel what i say. AND Probably most of want I said is out of order, but im writing it as it comes.
I have no problems with you and respect your points of view, but know this: We've been lied to over and over again and it seams like we dont care. When 4 years pass, we'll see what Obama has DONE or NOT DONE. I hope im right and Obama brings about a revolution in our now Idiotic society.

I might not be the brightest person, but i aint the dumbest either, and i see bullshit before i step in it.

O and sorry for all the S words. No offense to anyone. just got heated while i was writing.

[||§§||Dr.H]

Lol man you always find a way to bring Drugs into the subject as how governments put down their citizens. Many states are on their way to bring Marijuana to legal status or less strict punishments, and it's all for financial reasons and nothing to do with anyone thinking it has any positive benefits for our society.

How exactly did the war in Iraq put us in the financial state we are in now? While it was extremely expensive the Housing market crash was a much larger cause and that was due to the Democrats and had nothing to do with the Republicans. The causes of it started during the Clinton years and got worse during Bush who had warned the Democrats about it to no avail. To say all the stuff that Obama is doing now and all the crazy trillions of dollars he is spending is him trying to fix problems Bush caused is ridiculous. Obama has his own agenda but I don't think American want to be Europeans even if many Europeans think so highly of themselves.

I did not vote for Bush and told my parents that I didn't agree with them voting for him but I do agree with the boost in National Security that came from it.

How can you think Republics censor the media, really?? You do know that every tv news station is owned and run by democrats other than FOX news. Most Newspapers are run by Democrats and most of Hollywood is run by Democrats.. so how exactly does that equal Republic censorship, because I doubt like hell they could give a crap what the Republicans want them to show.
How do you know that what you are reading or seeing in Spain is any more correct than ours? Spain is notoriously anti-American and anti-Semitic so do you expect them to ever want to show us in a positive view? Your views of America have obviously been effected by living in Spain and while it's good to see and experience other cultures how can you be sure all your views were changed for the positive?

The United states has the best health care in the world even if it's system isn't perfect. To think that any of those countries give "free" heath care is ignorant. All their people are paying somehow.

Also I'm tired of this rich people are evil and greedy altitude. If you work hard and make a business that employs dozens if not hundred of people then you deserve to be punished for that and the money deserves to go to lazy people who want to sit on their ass all day collecting unemployment when there is nothing physically wrong with them? Yeah that sounds fair for me.. If I wanted more money I would work harder and there is no one to blame but myself. If businessmen and doctors are going to have all of their money taken from them then people are going to think there in no incentive to become one. Socialism is not the answer, at this point in time Fairtax (http://www.fairtax.org/) seems much better.

Also as I said before don't question how we help the world until you tell us what the heck Spain does for the world. (Not looking for a "I'll tell you what Spain doesn't do" answer)

Please try to break up your future paragraphs some for easier reading.
And please stop watching all of the extremist documentaries.. they're starting to mess with your head.

[||§§||Dr.H]

Hmm While I do tend to debate a lot with evildick, these debates may be outside of the bounds of what is allowed. I will have to find out and if so I'm ok with my posts being deleted.

[evildick]

First:
Sorry for the super paragraph. I was writing as it came.
Second:
Debates are good.

It would be bad if we started insults, which WE haven't.

The United states has the best health care in the world even if it's system isn't perfect. To think that any of those countries give "free" heath care is ignorant. All their people are paying somehow.

Of course we pay for it, but not alot. And not everyone has money. Poor, homeless people have the same right to healthcare as any other spanish citizen.

I only said that most of the prison population are in for possession of
marijuana. (which is true) Do you think a person in New Jersey should spend 7 years of his/her life in prison for a joint? I don't. It was just a mote point in my argument.

Should the government be allowed to tap my phone without probibale cause? I think not.

My father is a retired US Navy Chief Master At Arms and my mother is spanish. 5 years ago my grandmother died in the States, and she and her spanish brother and sister went to the funeral. My mother spent 3 hours in customs because the customs officers wanted to know why she hadn't visited the states in 5 years. All the while her brothers and sister had to wait for her. Her brothers and sisters are spanish with spanish passports. My mother has an indefinant Green card since shes married to my father. My mother had to end up giving up her Green card and enter as a spanish citizen or she would still be there being interogated.

National Security. OK. But not National Harassment.


Obama has his own agenda but I don't think American want to be Europeans even if many Europeans think so highly of themselves.

I'M AMERICAN. BORN IN AMERICA. I LOVE AMERICA. I JUST DON'T LOVE IT'S, "WE BETTER AND STRONGER AND ETC. THEN THE REST OF THE WORLD." NO NO NO. YOU ARE JUST LIKE ME; LIKE EVERYONE. WE ARE ALL FLESH AND BLOOD AND SHOULD ACT LIKE SO. NOT "WE'RE THE BEST BECAUSE WE SAY SO."

And I don't blame everything on Bush. Just the bad stuff. LOL. I'm joking.
But what did he do to help the economy? Nothing.
How many lies did he tell? Many.
Clinton lied once, and boom, Let's impeach him.
Bush, just a pat on the back, Good job Mr. Bush. WTF?
Are we as dumb as him?
I hope not.

I have faith (even though i'm not religious) in America and Americans to do the right thing. Will Obama prove me wrong? Maybe. But right now at the top of my DUMBASS Presidents list sit Bush Jr., with Bush Sr. coming in close. And Nixon and Reagan up there to.
I want a better American America, not a European America. I never said so.

But do you think it's right to make a Pact with the WORLD to contaminate less, and then when it's Americas ture to sign it, go "Hey we are't signing that"? What message are they sending to the world? Let's Pact that NO NUCLEAR ARMS, and then say, "NOPE We gotta have more than anyone"? Can't let anyone be BETTER then us. BS with a capital B and S. It is WORLDLY known, that most of Americas policys are not so BRIGHT, but hey we're Americans, we do Whatever the Hell we Want. With no regards to the WORLD. BRAVO BRAVO. Ever so selfish.

I look at the big picture, not just America. And because I live in Europe dosen't mean I'm Anti-American, it just means I like the weather. And the women. :D Take a trip to Europe and see what its like before critizizing it. :cry: Ask any military man/women who has travel abroad and see what they say. And they LOVE America, but also see what the real World is like. Its easy to sit at home and critizize everything not American when one has never left it. I don't critizize America, I critizize its Foreign Policys. And its government.

Even the current one until they prove me wrong. Go talk to someone who has left the country, and I garanty they won't lie to you about the rest of the world.
And about media censorship. I don't know who censors it, but it gets censored. You don't hear all the news about Iraq. Ask a military person who has been there what they think and saw.

As I said before, My AMERICAN Aunt came to visit a few years back (during Bush Administration) and she was shock by our news media. And it's probably censor too, but much less. They don't like showing your loved one being blown up there in the states, but it happened everyday a few years back. And be-headings and whatnot. I sure ain't gonna go and fight in Iraq with those posibilities, knowing that we are there to look for NON Existing weapons of Mass Destruction. The Bush Administration lied about that and much more. He could have at least had the curtisy of telling our soliders what they were really there to do.

So far Obama hasn't lied (that I know of). He's taken the war to Afganistan were the real TERRORIST are. Not Iraq. I'm glad Saddam is gone, but he should have just said we were going to get rid of a dictator and steel petrolium, not the FIND WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION LIE. And if Saddam deseved to be hung for his previous crimes, then maybe someone else should be too. Someone who likes the Electric Chair and the leathal injectiones so much.

If you do the crime, pay the price.

What right did the tank that blew up the MEDIA'S HOTEL have to kill the innocent reporter doing his job. Where was the justice there? No one even got a reprimand for that grave mistake. (which was on purpose BTW) And not the tank commander, the officer who ordered it to be done. The tank was following orders from above, and someone either made a mistake or just didn't like the media. But no justice was served. NOPE WE AMERICANS CAN DO WHATEVER WITHOUT CONSICUENSES. BUT DON'T CROSS US, OR WILL INVADE YOU. WILL SELL YOU ALL OUR OLD WEAPONS; BUT DON'T THINK THAT DOWN THE LINE, WE WON'T INVADE YOU, CAUSE WE WILL. BS:redface:SHAME ON AMERICAN POLICYS. SHAME ON EVERYONE WHO TAKES A BLIND EYE TO IT ALL.
LAND OF THE FREE AND HOME OF THE BRAVE. WELL, I DON'T SEE MUCH FREEDOM (except with GUNS) AND BRAVE PEOPLE DON'T KILL INOCENTES. (although any military man/woman is brave if they are in Iraq)

My heart goes out to all you poor souls that have to live with life and death situationes their everyday. But I'm glad your being pulled out. Your lives are worth more then the milliones of gallones of petrolium that they are being wasted on.

Live Long and Prosper to you all. My best wishes. :ikn_peace::sorry:

[evildick]

And please don't erase our post. I like debating and viewing others opinions.

[||§§||Dr.H]

Ok your last post made a lot more sense in stating your views than your first one ;).

[evildick]

Thank you.


All I want is for you to know that I don't hate America. I love it. But that America isn't the whole universe, although it has many great values and views also. Its just bad politics that make some dislike it. But I like to show people overseas that not all Americans are bad. We have good people and bad people like all other places, and that you can't judge a society as a whole.

You might agree and disagree with some of my points of view, and I might agree and disagree with some of your points of view. No one views the world the same. We must learn to live and respect one another. Just as everyone else should.

The only people I disagree with are radicals and closed minded people, which you are neither.
I'm glad that my last post was better worded and that you understood it, even if you might not agree with it.

I like to show the people hear that we are not all bad. There are many good people, yourself included, that just have to live with what we've got and make the best. For ourselves and if possible for others.

Goodnight (3:35AM)

[||§§||Hand_O_Death]

I do not agree with your view, but I will fight to the death to defend your right to express it freely
- Voltaire (Note: no quotes because the exact wording is debated but the point is there)

It is a nice debate (how be it long) and everyone seems to be acting like adults, it is sad that I am impressed by that.

btw ED, I do that whole "long paragraph because my thought doesn't end" thing as well lol

[||§§||Foehammer]

tl;dr but it looked cool!

[||§§||Dr.H]

Back on main topic.
It looks like Obama, Gates and Crowley are having that "Beer" together.
While Obama has in the past used the common mans drink of beer to try and show he's just one of the guys when his polls are slipping or he realizes that he's came off to much as an "elitist snob"... I do agree that the reason it justified in the end. Even if it's really just to save face, pushing the subject will not make anything better.

Obama was wrong to jump the gun and make a personal statement before any of the facts had come to light. Even though more than half of the media went crazy salivating on a possible racism case to bring against the evil police.. wait did the police help and die in the tower attack? no I must be confusing them with that rare breed of honest good police officers, silly me.( I know many people in our country and around the world would be happy if no one ever mentioned that dead horse of an incident on 9/11. While we shouldn't lead every story with it anymore I don't think it should be seen as a negative thing to support now?)
Yes many cops are power hungry dicks but for the most part they are just trying to do their job and not get killed doing it.

Gates was wrong to be so mean to the police officer and call him racist when it's been largely proven that no there was no racial profiling done by the police or 911 caller in this case. I'm not saying we can prove how they personally feel but just how they acted in this case.

Cowley was wrong in arresting Gates. Yes it was his right to do so under police harassment but with his experience he should have seen the situation for what it was and been the better man and walked away. He may have been called "that racist pig" by the group and student that Gates deals with for a while but it would have never turned into the mess that it became. I doubt Gate would have pressed legal actions.

What we have learned from this is that America is far from being able to handle racism conversations in large. There is still racism here for sure and now it is mixed with the media calling everyone who wants to talk about it racist without any proof. Add on the fact there is so much racism that is never brought to light but half of the racism that is isn't even racism in the first place.. Our country is so tossed around about by this right now that all it is doing is dividing us more and possible taking people who where never racist toward a white guy or a black guy and turning them into one.. sigh.

I don't know what will happen next but I have a feeling we will all go back to living in our ignorant bliss for the next few months until the next time we are shown how messed up things are.

We should all be concentrating on fixing the stimulus mess up and stopping the cap and trade and federal health plan before they take our financially broke country and make it that way for decades to come.

[||§§||GhostDog]

Back on main topic.
It looks like Obama, Gates and Crowley are having that "Beer" together.
While Obama has in the past used the common mans drink of beer to try and show he's just one of the guys when his polls are slipping or he realizes that he's came off to much as an "elitist snob"... I do agree that the reason it justified in the end. Even if it's really just to save face, pushing the subject will not make anything better.

I agree with you that all three men could have chosen a different course of action. One that would have resulted in much less media coverage. But in the end it got sorted out and nobody got hurt. I have to question the accuracy of the above paragraph though. But it does show how much you detest someone when something as simple as an apologetic beer gets distorted into something else altogether. Hard to mend fences when there's always someone behind you trying to kick you in the balls.

[evildick]

I argree with you on the racist issue. All parties were at fault, but as you say, the police also have their rights and should be treated with respect until they disrespect you.

I hope the people see this insident for what it is, and that they keep trying to be racist free.



We should all be concentrating on fixing the stimulus mess up and stopping the cap and trade and federal health plan before they take our financially broke country and make it that way for decades to come.

I don't understand the part about the "cap and trade", but I believe in a society with free healthcare for all not just the upper and middle classes. But it must be done right. I dont know exactly how Obama plans to do this (if he does), but I'll still hope for free healthcare anyhow, just do it right.

Maybe the government should raise Tobacco and Gas taxes to help pay for most of the cost of a free healthcare plan.

-Gas because not everyone needs a 200Hp car to get where they need to.
-And Tobacco, because it is bad and should help pay for the damage it does.

Here in Europe, we pay much more for gasoline. We pay aproximatly 1.40 - 1.50 dollars per liter.
(1 gallon is 3.785411 liters).

Tobacco cost anywhere from 3 to 4 dollars per pack (20 cigarettes).

This is just a suggestion. I smoke and don't want the price to go up, but I would rather pay more for tobacco then have people who can't afford healthcare die.:thumbsup2:

[evildick]

O, and to keep all my post consistent, you could also legalize Marijuana and tax it.
That would bring in some big bucks.

LOL. I don't smoke weed anymore. But it's still a good suggestion.

[||§§||Dr.H]

For Ghost, nothing is simple in politics and nothing means what it appears to. What I meant by that paragraph was that I don't fully trust that Obama is doing it for honest reasons. The fact he said it after his poll numbers started to drop fast I think has more to do with it.

Evildick while I don't agree with smoking pot I do agree that legalizing it and putting it under government control would not only free up a lot of prison space but make a insanely large hit on the drug trade and take some of their billions a year profit to help us instead. We would have to just trust the government on running that show properly... I think they would probably have a 21 age limit like alcohol.

The problem with free health care is there is no way to do it right without causing major destruction to our current health and financial infrastructures. I think they would first have to prove that it can even work in a country the size of the United States when all the other examples are filled with good prices but horrible health care.

They already have large taxes on gas and smoking. I think they just raised cigarettes again. The main problem with gas is it our country is built on roads and outside of major cities we have almost no public transportation, The cost of actually doing that would on a country our size would be insane. Plus people just wouldn't stand for it.
It would effect commercial and business drivers a lot more than sports car drivers who on average if they can afford the car could care less about gas costs.

The Cap and Trade bill would allow the EPA to control the amount of CO2 produced by every biz in the United States even cow farmers. It's suppose to slow down global warming but they have two problems.
One the global climate hasn't changed in over 7 years so they are having a problem showing that it is man made instead of a Planetary Cycle. Me I have no idea either way but I know that they have been shoving global warming down our throat since I was a kid and while I agree with preserving the planets trees and wildlife I'm not sure Cap and Trade is the answer.
Two, we are already far behind China and India in manufacturing due to their low labor costs and this bill would limit how much many companies produce here, that will be a hit on our economy and then add in they will have to outsource even more because that are not allowed to meet the production demands put on them.

Yeah it would be better to possible help the planet but is our country ready to take the financial drop and level of living drop to do it right now when the other big countries just keep making more money and we keep loosing it?
Add to it that this program will raise the tax of an average family of 4 by up to $3,000 a year.

It makes you wonder what the Democrats agenda is when they are strongly pushing some of the most costly programs in U.S history during a time when the U.S economy and job rate it at its lowest in decades? It just doesn't make sense.. why can't they wait a couple years for the economy to rebound unless they are afraid that they won't have the leverage on the U.S population by that time?

[||§§||GhostDog]

The problem with free health care is there is no way to do it right without causing major destruction to our current health and financial infrastructures. I think they would first have to prove that it can even work in a country the size of the United States when all the other examples are filled with good prices but horrible health care.


Why is the healthcare system in it's current state better for the Americans than a healtcare system that everyone can afford?

While few things are perfect, I feel like our healthcare system is pretty good here in Canada. There are always discussions about making it work better but I've never felt like it was horrible. Far from it.

[||§§||Dr.H]

I think we are getting confused on how each of us are using the term "health care" You seem focused on cost and I'm talking overall quality.
If our quantity of covered Americans goes up by a government plan the quality will go down, I just don't see a way around it.

The United States insurance industry is our main problem and our lack of supplying a cheaper based insurance plans for lower income individuals.
The more expensive plans have better cheaper service but cost more yearly while the cheaper plans have less service and cost more each time they are used.

We fall far behind other countries in providing health care for everyone but we have some of the best doctors, hospitals and technologies in the world. It's also really fast to see a doctor and have multiple tests done when needed. We don't have to wait months and they don't decide what tests are allowed or needed based on cost or age. We also have lots of private doctors to choose from in many towns.

If you don't have insurance then the costs are very high. Most people don't know that there are insurance groups you can join for very affordable amounts.

The main concern I have is how do they supply insurance to the uninsured or illegals without destroying the current system. The costs are outrageous and there is no way to find the money without taxing everyone, it's just not going to happen. Of course most people probably don't care if their taxes go up as long as it doesn't seem they are paying for their medical.

Many small insurance companies are going to go out of business because they won't be able to compete and many private doctors have already said they won't except the new health care. If you choose not to take the new plan you have to prove to the IRS that you have insurance or they will fine you over $2000 a year. They say you will be able to keep your old plans but there is a bunch of ways in there that force people or companies to switch..

So what we know is that private insurance needs to be reworked to fix a lot of cost problems. Much of these cost problems are because of the crazy expensive malpractice insurance doctors have to carry now for all of the faulty clams.
We need to have some sort of system in place to deal with malpractice clams so they can weed the honest ones out of the pile of dishonest ones.
But many people are not interested in fixing the system we have so that costs come down and mandating lower cost plans for public use, instead they want to punish and shut down the private insurance companies and they think they will magically have the full coverage that the private companies gave under a government plan. Some people have no foresight into the consistence.

While it all sounds like a really good idea it's all a big mess just like it always is when they try to do one. That's why opposition is climbing to the point it's almost tied.
Don't get me wrong, I would like a way for my parents to be able to afford insurance and I never had any myself until I got married. Even though my parent are uninsured they do not want the government to pass this..

[evildick]

So basically in your case, when you needed an X-ray, your parents had to pay 200 dollars or more to get it?
How can a homeless man get an X-ray with the current system? Or do you think he doesn't deserve it?

Most of First World countries (and some Third World) have "free" healthcare and they get by just fine. Why it wouldn't work in the states is because the "people" in control of the heathcare insurance companies are afraid of losing money. And some will.
I don't know how all countries work it out, but here in Europe, everyone (even people on vacation from other countries) has free public heathcare. And people who can afford it have private healthcare. You are right that we must wait longer in the Emergency Room for a doctor to look at us, but that is for non life threatening cases. If its really bad, you go in first. If its a cold, ya gotta wait.

This is all just another way to take peoples money in a legal (but immoral) way.

Watch the documentary "SICKO". (and yes I like documentaries) Its by an American guy named Michael Moore. He loves America, but sees the flaws in the "system". The first scene is of an american without healthcare who has to sow his knee, without help or anestesia. It would have cost him more then 100 dollars for a nurse to sow his 3 "three" stitches. WTF??? Its 3 stitches for crist sake. Near the end of the documentary, they show some Firefighters and Police officers who where in the 9/11 attacks that don't get the healthcare they need. They have to go to Cuba "CUBA!!!" to get better healthcare. And the Cubans are supposed to HATE America, but they take care of these men and women as if they were their own.

Please watch the documentary. It will open your eyes to the US Healthcare problem. Just watch it. Then say "its sh*t" or "its a masterpiece". I don't care. Just see it and be informed.

BTW, you do know that the government (even the current one) isn't perfect, and that they lie when they see fit. Even if it's the most harmful lie they can think of, they don't care. They have money and healthcare and everything else they need. Most really don't care about the middle and lower clase citizens.
They just want more for them and less for us.

As the Canadien before said, it works for them. Why can't it work for us in the US?

Because people are stupid and can't see past their own nose?

Probably.:doh:

If I were to go back to the states on vacation and broke my foot, I would have to pay hundereds of dollars just for the X-ray and cast. :cry:Now thats what I call SH*TY.
I would rather cross the border to Canada and get it fix for free. And with the same medical care.
And FREE.
As it should be.

"Information brings change, good change" by *****.

Good luck to all people out there without healthcare. May you be free of sickness and injury.
Or it will cost you a eye.:thumbsup2:

[||§§||GhostDog]

I think we are getting confused on how each of us are using the term "health care" You seem focused on cost and I'm talking overall quality.
If our quantity of covered Americans goes up by a government plan the quality will go down, I just don't see a way around it.

So, making sure people who can't afford health insurance never get it means better service for those who can afford it. And that's the fear of facing change. People who already have what they want worry about what they're going to lose as a result?

I don't believe this theory about quality vs. quantity applies here in Canada. There has been a shortage of family doctors in the past but even if you don't have a family doctor you can still go to any walk in clinic and be seen, by a qualified doctor with access to modern technology and a bevy of tests at his disposal, within an hour or two depending on how serious your injury or symptoms are.

In any event, this is not something I need to worry about. I sincerely hope this administration finds a way to help it's people without causing too much panic.

[||§§||Kit]

As a person who pays good $ for great health insurance...no, I don't want them to take it away so someone who can't afford it get it and in turn I have to get crappy insurance because that's what Obama is telling me I have to do.

It's not fear of change, it's just being logical. Some people, like me, have pre-existing conditions that would more than likely not be covered fully on Obama's plan. So, if you call that fear of change, so be it.

[evildick]

||§§||Kit:

Everywhere there is healthcare, everyone gets treated right, even people who have any pre-existing conditions or health probables. You wouldn't have to pat good $ for it, you would just get it for free.

Think about someone who has your condition and not enough $ to pay for healthcare?
How would you feel in his/her position?

I personally have a freind that has a very bad disorder and needs to use a special machine every 2 months. They are very expensive and only 2 exist in my country. All he has to do is take a trip to the hospital that has it and use it for that week, and he's good.
Do you think that if he had no money, that he should just die from this afliction?
I don't, and I hope you don't either.

I don't know Obama's plan, but I wish for free healthcare for ALL.

The people in charge of Private Healthcare should be ashamed :redface: for capitalizing on peoples health and death. And that a Third World country like Cuba has better health and well being then a First World nation (and former number 1 power) like America.

And quality and quantity do and do not go together. Not to the point where we let PEOPLE die.

This is an excert from the Declaration of Independence:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.



Everyone should put theirselves in the others (people with little or no moneys) shoes, and think how you would feel being denied the care you need.

I hope you get better Kit, or at least feel better.

[||§§||Dr.H]

I never said that people who can't afford health care shouldn't get it. I think they need to fix the current system and make very affordable plans for everyone who can't afford it.
Health care is important but I don't know why people think it's more important that the U.S. economy as a whole right now?

I've watched Sicko before. I've also read reviews of how it is left wing propaganda. He spins the truth in his typical anti-American style..

Here is a more truthful side of Cuba's great Health Care system http://diariodeamerica.com/front_nota_detalle.php?id_noticia=1832
http://therealcuba.com/Page10.htm

Yeah I'm soooo not going to Cuba for Medical needs.

To call Sicko a documentary does injustice to documentaries. I'll stay away from his rose colored bs glasses.

And where is all these ideas that the Health care is going to be free?? Is anything ever close to free?

[||§§||Kit]

Thank you for the history lesson. I'm not a dumbass. I do hold a master's degree in education.

If you don't know about Obama's plan for health care why bother defending it?

[||§§||GhostDog]

Does anyone know the details of Obama's plans at this point? He did give a very vague and general overview of how he saw the plan working but I haven't heard the details of a actual plan yet. But it would seem the details of the plan aren't the issue. The very idea of public healthcare appears to ruffle some feathers.

I don't see where anyone called anyone else a dumbass.

[||§§||Kit]

Mind your business.

[||§§||GhostDog]

I thought I was participating in a polite forum discussion.

[||§§||Dr.H]

Lol silly people.

As to the plan and it's details. The ideas of the plan sound freaking awesome, it's the details and their effects that freaking suck.. blah.

[evildick]

Thank you for the history lesson. I'm not a dumbass. I do hold a master's degree in education.

If you don't know about Obama's plan for health care why bother defending it?

I don't defend Obama's plan.

I defend the right to free medical treatment. Be rich or poor.

O, and i'm not a dumbass either. :shakehead: I don't think a degree in education makes you smarter then the rest. You might possibly know more about education, but not about everything else.

And Ghostdog does make good points.

Do you see anyone in Canada bitching about their healthcare system? I know I don't. They get healthcare to all and theres more than enough money to pay for it, and have quality service too.


Dr. H:

Its pretty clear you hate left wing thinking, but you shouldn't just right off all documentaries as "left wing propaganda". Some might be true.
But even if only 10% of the documentary is true, then there is a problem.

[evildick]

O, and just keep on looking out for yourselves.

Thats a real good education.

:redface::shakehead:

[||§§||Dr.H]

I support that everyone should have heath care but I disagree with you using the word "free" it will not be free for anyone. Like in many other countries with socialized medicine the price is longer waiting, fewer doctors per patient, higher taxes and rationing of medicine and care. Some people have to go to hospitals because there are no family doctors, some towns hold lotteries to see which house gets a family doctor next.. But there are many people who feel that the cons are worth the pros.

Yes our system is a mess and needs to be fixed. We need to get health care for everyone I just wish there was a way to do that without socializing it. It seems like we are all on the same page with health care we just differ in how to get it done. That's something at least.


I also don't right off all left wing documentaries. Many of their points on environment, religion, women's rights and other things are very good. I just think Michael Moore is an ass and will make up anything to support his own agendas and profit, he's among the bottom of the barrel in movie directors.

[||§§||Dr.H]

O, and just keep on looking out for yourselves.

Thats a real good education.

:redface::shakehead:

That's a bit to easy to say until you are the one actually paying or loosing because of it. Though you may be ok with making it harder to pay your bills if you can feel good about help out other people. There are many ways to help other people if you're the type of person up to it, do you give a lot of money to charity each year?

Everyone has to look out for themselves in this world because no one will do it for you without having a benefit for themselves. We just have to find a way to make things better for one group of people without making it worse for others. Of course everyone is in the punish the rich mode right now even though I'm far from rich and closer to lower middle class plus having the worst financial year I've had since I started working.

[||§§||Hand_O_Death]

When you actually work in ajob where everyday you see healthy 20 somethings on "Disability" selling drugs or doing nothing at all, families that live in absolute squaller by their own doing because they could care less about the apartment they are in since the Govt is paying for it. the "State Assistance" cards that let these same people use Ambulances as free Taxis (btw average ride costs about $700 to tax payers, not including the medical charges if they decide to go into the hospital) then you can talk about how "the rich don't care about the poor"

Personally I am for better restrictions and processing of healthcare and welfare claims.

Sorry, LONG rant comming up about how things "should be"

I have a friend from Turkey that could not believe how many state assitance people bout food with welfare and used all of their money on Lotto tickets (he worked at a gas station). he told me that in his country a board was set up for EVERY claim that consited of doctors, govt officails and job seekers and trainers, and they would go over every case and find something for everyone. so the jacked 19 year old boy who is somehow on state disability even though he is in better shape than me, can sit down at a compter and do data entry or something is his tummy hurts too much for physical labor. So the people that actually received "Welfare" would be the one that only needed it and therefore could get more of it. This also gants jobs for people to WORK as board members itself so see even MORE jobs. The propblem now is that we just give it away to everyone and they just take it.
Why work when the government gives it away for free?
And yes I am SO for drug testing for any government assistence. Even if your Pro drugs you can not argue with it, because if you can afford drugs, you do not need state assistence.

/End Rant (for now, dun dun DUNNNNN)

But then again, I am no politician so what do I know. I just do not want to have my taxes raised so scum can mooch off me and all other hard workers even more.

I am already pissed about this whole mortgage bail out. I bought a house during that time and you know what we did? We figured out what we could afford and looked for something under that price, these subprime morons who get pissed that their adjustables shot through the roof are gettng bailed out. which means then that I should have bought a house twice as expensive and then just let others pay for it right? but then again I have a small amount of pride that lets me know I earned for what I pay for (not a crack at those that really do not have the ability to earn, just the ones that do and choose not to)

Oh and ED before you get all holier than though about looking out for yourself and judging others, you do not know who you are talking to or what these people do in their spare time, so unless your mother Teresa reincarnated, think before you type. I am sure all the time you spend on these forums with us you could be reading to the blind or be working in a soup kitchen and your not either.

[evildick]

I just think Michael Moore is an ass and will make up anything to support his own agendas and profit, he's among the bottom of the barrel in movie directors.

OK.

But since when did the government not lie to its people for its benefit?

Most charity are fraudulant. Except for a few. When I want to give help to the poor, I go directly to them. So I know they get it. The only charity I would give to is the Red Cross.



||§§||Hand_O_Death:

I do understand that many people abuse the system.

And you can't just give it out. Your Turkish friend is right. There are boards set up for EVERY "health issue" claim that consited of doctors (medical and psychological) and they would go over every case and find if what you claim is real or false. And would recommend you for the appropriate treatment.

And since I'm currently without a job right now, I am a VOLUNTEER lifeguard at my local beach. Most days, from 11:00-21:00, with a lunch break, I stand there making sure people don't drowned, get heat strokes, or have heart attacks. I also help out when a boat load of illegal imagrents comes in and they need help. I do more then most people.

You also don't know the situation of a drug junkie or a homeless man, and you have already judged them as far as to say they don't deserve healthcare if they can't pay for it. You are lucky to be able to pay for yours, but they are not so lucky.

I'm also not religious, and pretty much dispise it. But I do think mother Teresa was a person who did what she could for the lesser fortunate. I also do what I can for the less fortunate, and it's clearly not enough. If everyone gave a LITTLE, it would go a long ways.

[evildick]

I see I'm pretty much beating a dead horse here. :sFun_DeadHorse:

And I'm not going to convice some of you. I'm just happy to make my point.

[||§§||Dr.H]

There are lots of better charities than the red cross who has gotten in trouble in the past especially during Katrina. I'm sure there is a good list somewhere of trusted places to donate. My wife and I commonly donate to animal charities since we like pets more that people lol.

It is nice that you volunteer at the beaches and I commend you for it but that a chosen fun time for people. I know that Kit and volunteered at both soup kitchen and hospitals in the past.


On what Hand said, this bills main supposed reason is to bring health care to all that can not afford it. So that means the poor and lower middle class. (Of course they say it will bring down everyone's insurance prices but they haven't come close to proving it). The problem is that there are already a crap load of financial programs out for those people that are government run and messed up, if the government can not get these people to work then are we to think they are giving up and saying fine we'll just take care of everything? Not only that but it's such a diverse group, how do you decide who deserves it and who doesn't. There are lots of people with true disabilities or people who live in very poor areas where the job market is dead, these people need health care also honest people who have lost their job and just need a little help while they look for a new one. But how do you weed out all of the scumbags who are selling drug, using drugs, abusing the system, or just to plan lazy to get a job?

If we can't fix that problem then are we suppose to say everyone deserve health care no matter what? I think it's to easy to just say everyone should get health care and it shouldn't be something you earn, what does that say to the majority of Americans who do work hard and earn their health care, that they shouldn't work so hard anymore because is doesn't mean anything these days? Its like the government is to lazy to fix anything and just want to toss money at it hoping everything will go away.. I'm tired of people saying we should try to feel some empathy or be in their shoes. I think this new government does not want anyone to be rich or poor anymore they want everyone to be lower middle class and dependent on them.

I know a guy who got laid off two years ago but he is to proud to get a job that he thinks is underneath him so he's been sitting on his ass since... really if I lost my job I would work at Walmart and freaking Stop & Shop if I had to.

We are not adding a new great program we are just stacking more crap onto of all the other crap and hoping this shiny new crap will hid all of the broken down crap lol.

[evildick]

I understand.

But I still think EVERYONE deserves healthcare, be good or bad, rich or poor.

People who could afford it, could pay for a better Private service. Which will undoubtablely be better then the one given for free. But still, everyone has that right. Its in our Declaraction of Independence, and probably in the Constitution somewhere. Just as people fight for their right to Bear Arms, they should also fight for their right to Life, a dignified life at that.

And of course everyone should get this care. But should also be really sick. People who fake should be denied healthcare perminantly for trying to trick the system. Of course it will not be easy, but it has to be done. For everyone's sake.

Imagine you lost your job and couldn't pay for healthcare. How would you feel?
I would imagine you would like treatment when your sick just like everyone else.
Just think about that.

But hey, if people still want to live in the dark ages of medical care, who am I to say no. I only have 1 vote.

I feel sorry for all who have to live and die with no help what so ever. And ashamed and angry at the ones who let this happen.

I'm pretty much out of arguments so...

Peace Out

:ik__closed:

[||§§||Dr.H]

I didn't have health care for most of my life and I have never been denied care by any hospital or doctor. I think it's a misnomer that if you are uninsured you will be denied help. It's against the law to deny medical treatment.

They ask you if you have insurance and if you say no then they continue on with business. You will receive a bill in the mail and you can call them to work out payment plans and most of the time even get the price down if your willing to try. If you go to a private doctor many are willing to give discounts if you pay in cash since they are able to skip tons of paperwork and processes. Yes it will cost more than if you have insurance but if you're paying over $2000 a year for good company coverage plus per visit deductibles chance are if you are decently healthy you will not spend more than that if your are uninsured per year.

It's the large operations and procedures that they need to bring the price down on. These things are crazy prices and it seems some doctors are making like $50 per min. Of course many spend almost as much money on malpractice insurance at they make per year.

[evildick]

You are right. You are attended to. And surgery is the most expensive part. But medications and test (ex: blood test or x-rays) are also expensive. And if they think you won't be able to pay, you won't get treated as well or not at all.

[||§§||Dr.H]

I've never not had tests done when I was off insurance that I did when I was on it. Though I wouldn't put it past clinics that are located in socially poor areas or areas with high illegal immigrants. While it's a form of social profiling they might do it because they're use to not getting paid.

Illegal immigrants is a whole nother can of worms lol that I'm so not into debating right now.

[evildick]

Ya I got ya. Imigration is another story.

All I know, is my parents a few years back had to pay 200 and some old dollars, to get the tip of my sister's pinky finger x-rayed and to sow 1 stitch, at a clinic. The military reinbust my father, but he had to pay for it first.

[||§§||Hand_O_Death]

well in all fairness it does not matter what is Xrayed, it is bout how many plates and what size are used since it costs money to clean and reset the plates.

But yea since all of that stuff needs to always be sterilized, the equipment is very expensive, and all these malpractice lawsuits that mean you pay an extra 75% to cover doctors lawyers, really does add up which sucks.

[||§§||Dr.H]

It looks like things are getting crazier than ever here in the states.. Obama's huge staff and lackeys are now starting to be called "Brown Shirts" (look up Hitlers Brown Shirts if you don't know your history) He has already stated he wants a "Civilian nations security force" his words. There is already talk of an Obama's Youth group. They say its for helping people freedom and all your other cliche good things but we've heard that before...

Obama has started a website so people can turn in sites or people they see that are against his health care plan. They say it's only so that they can correct the facts so no one is misinformed but I have a feeling it's more thug behavior from this presidency. If a site has correct fact or their own opinion but those facts or opinion go against the current Democrats then I'll bet you can see these sites affected as well.

There are people who actually think this is a good thing? Can they be that ignorant of history to know that paths like these are never good. What is this the new McCarthyism? Are we suppose to start feeling scared for our freedom if we disagree with the current administration? They hated Bush and disagreed with him publicly all the time and so did many of us but I guess we are no longer allowed to question now that the godlike democrats are in power... I have nothing against most Democrats but how did these psychos get in charge?? Obama is angry, he hates most Americans and will make us pay for ever questioning his judgments.

Even if you're for a new health care system in the U.S. you can't tell me something doesn't feel wrong about this administration?

Everyone please vote on 2010!!!



"There is a lot of disinformation about health insurance reform out there, spanning from control of personal finances to end of life care. These rumors often travel just below the surface via chain emails or >>through casual conversation<<. Since we can’t keep track of all of them here at the White House, we’re asking for your help. If you get an email or see something on the web about health insurance reform that seems fishy, send it to flag@whitehouse.gov."

[||§§||GhostDog]

Obama / Hitler....... Any chance you might jumping the gun just a bit?

Information is obviously a major factor in people's perceptions of what is and isn't good for America and Americans in general. Why wouldn't a responsible administration want it's citizens to have the facts on what is obviously a volitile subject? It does seem that those opposed do not hesitate to spread their own set of "facts" to derail anything this government tries to do. How is it that the opposition has so many facts against a plan that hasn't even been presented yet? They (Obama) have to get they're side of the argument out there somehow so that people's heads don't explode when the day finally comes to incorporate these new programs.

Hate and fear have never done anyone any good. Unless your last name is Bush.

[||§§||Kit]

Obama / Hitler....... Any chance you might jumping the gun just a bit?


First of all, you annoy me to no end. If you read it correctly he didn't say that HE was calling them brown shirts. It is a name that has been placed on these people by "society."

[||§§||GhostDog]

What is annoying are your personal attacks on anyone who doesn't agree with your (incredibly negative) point of view. Wasn't there a thread about trolling? Why is it that these rules don't apply to you?

Next time, PM me if you want to have this kind of discussion.

[evildick]

Obama = Hitler ???

I don't think so. And I don't think it was refered too.

Why anyone would call Obama's staff "Brown Shirts", I have no idea.

Civilian police force. Hope not.

I was scared of my freedoms with Bush. Not yet with Obama.

He is correct though, that the people should be informed correctly, not by some Non-factual email.

And we should respect peoples opinions, even if we don't agree with them. Or at least try.

[||§§||Dr.H]

Lol man that got misconstrued big time. I never said Obama was like Hitler.

I was making comments on things going on right now and how they are similar to past events. Hitler was a psychopathic nut job but if you take away his hostile takeovers and mass killings then I'm sure many power crazy politician agree with his policies even if they would never admit it.

What freedoms where you afraid Bush was going to take away? He didn't want near the government control Obama wants? Hate and fear has been working just as dandy for the current crappy administration as the last crappy administration. It kinda comes with the job.

You are also missing the point of his website. They want to be informed of anyone who is disagreeing with them, most people have no idea if the facts are true or not. Also how are you to assume that the facts the white house gives are true? They tend not to give facts as much as open comments because the actual facts are working against them.

They have released the pages of their current health care plan, you just haven't looked for it. HR-3200 http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-h3200/text

Here is a nice summary if you want it broken down from legal text lol its a bit dramatic but the basic points are there. They do keep changing it though..

It's your basic hardcore government run socialist health care, if you like that type of health care then that's your choice, the fact that almost half of Americans don't means that for our country we are having a problem right now.


Mathew D. Staver, Founder and Chairman, Dean and Professor of Law, Liberty Counsel Liberty University School of Law reviews HR 3200, which is currently under consideration in the House of Representatives:
Pg 22 of the HC Bill MANDATES the Govt will audit the books of ALL EMPLOYERS that self insure!!
Pg 30 Sec 123 of HC bill – THERE WILL BE A GOVT COMMITTEE that decides what treatments/benefits you get
Pg 29 lines 4-16 in the HC bill – YOUR HEALTHCARE IS RATIONED!!!
Pg 42 of HC Bill – The Health Choices Commissioner will choose your benefits for you. You have no choice!
Pg 50 Section 152 in HC bill – HC will be provided to ALL non US citizens, illegal or otherwise
Pg 58HC Bill – Gov’t will have real-time access to individual’s finances & a National ID Health care card will be issued!
Pg 59 HC Bill lines 21-24 Govt will have direct access to your banks accts for electronic funds transfer.
Pg 65 Sec 164 is a payoff subsidized plan for retirees and their families in Unions & community orgs (ACORN).
Pg 72 Lines 8-14 Govt is creating an HC Exchange to bring priv HC plans under Govt control.
Pg 84 Sec 203 HC bill – Govt mandates ALL benefit packages for private Health Care plans in the Exchange
Pg 85 Line 7 HC Bill – Specs for of Benefit Levels for Plans = The Govt will ration your Healthcare!
Pg 91 Lines 4-7 HC Bill – Govt mandates linguistic appropriate services.
Example – Translation for illegal aliens.
Pg 95 HC Bill Lines 8-18 The Govt will use groups i.e., ACORN & Americorps to sign up individuals for Govt HC plan
Pg 85 Line 7 HC Bill – Specs of Ben Levels 4 Plans. #AARP members – Your Health Care WILL be rationed
Pg 102 Lines 12-18 HC Bill – Medicaid Eligible Individual will be automat.enrolled in Medicaid. No choice.
Pg 124 lines 24-25 HC No company can sue Govt on price fixing. No “judicial review” against Govt Monopoly.
Pg 127 Lines 1-16 HC Bill – Doctors/ #AMA – The Govt will tell YOU what you can make.
Pg 145 Line 15-17 An Employer MUST auto enroll employees into public opt plan. NO CHOICE
Pg 126 Lines 22-25 Employers MUST pay for HC for part time employees AND their families.
Pg 149 Lines 16-24 ANY Employer w/ payroll 400k & above who does not prov. pub opt. pays 8% tax on all payroll
Pg 150 Lines 9-13 Biz w payroll btw 251k & 400k who doesnt provide public opt pays 2-6% tax on all payroll Pg 167 Lines 18-23 ANY individual who doesnt have acceptable HC according to Govt will be taxed 2.5% of income.
Pg 170 Lines 1-3 Any NONRESIDENT Alien is exempt from individual taxes. (Americans will pay).
Pg 195 Officers & employees of HC Admin (GOVT) will have access to ALL Americans financial and personal records.
Pg 203 Line 14-15 HC – “The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax” Yes, it says that. Pg 239 Line 14-24 HC Bill Govt will reduce physician services for Medicaid. Seniors, low income, poor affected.
Pg 241 Line 6-8 HC Bill – Doctors, it does not matter what specialty you have, you’ll all be paid the same.
Pg 253 Line 10-18 Govt sets value of Dr’s time, prof judg, etc. Literally value of humans.
Pg 265 Sec 1131Govt mandates & controls productivity for private HC industries.
Pg 268 Sec 1141 Fed Govt regulates rental & purchase of power driven wheelchairs.
Pg 272 SEC. 1145. Treatment of certain cancer hospitals – Cancer patients – welcome to rationing!
Page 280 Sec 1151 The Govt will penalize hospitals for what Govt deems preventable readmissions. (Incentives for hospital to not treat and release.)
Pg 298 Lines 9-11 Drs, treat a patient during initial admission that results in a readmission-Govt will penalize you.
Pg 317 L 13-20 PROHIBITION on ownership/investment. Govt tells Drs. what/how much they can own.
Pg 317-318 lines 21-25,1-3 PROHIBITION on expansion- Govt is mandating hospitals cannot expand.
pg 321 2-13 Hospitals have opportunity to apply for exception BUT community input required. Can you say ACORN?!!
Pg335 L 16-25 Pg 336-339 – Govt mandates established of outcome based measures. HC the way they want. Rationing.
Pg 341 Lines 3-9 Govt has authority to disqualify Medicare Advantage Plans (Part B), HMOs, etc. Forcing people into Govt plan.
Pg 354 Sec 1177 – Govt will RESTRICT enrollment of Special needs people!
Pg 379 Sec 1191 Govt creates more bureaucracy – Telehealth Advisory Committee. HC by phone/Internet?
Pg 425 Lines 4-12 Govt mandates Advance [Death] Care Planning Consult. Think Senior Citizens end of life.
Pg 425 Lines 17-19 Govt will instruct & consult regarding living wills, durable powers of atty. Mandatory!
Pg 425 Lines 22-25, 426 Lines 1-3 Gov’t provides approved list of end of life resources, guiding you in death.
Pg 427 Lines 15-24 Govt mandates program for orders for end of life. The Gov’t has a say in how your life ends.
Pg 429 Lines 1-9 An “adv. care planning consult” will be used frequently as patients health deteriorates.
Pg 429 Lines 10-12 “adv. care consultation” may incl an ORDER for end of life plans. AN ORDER from GOV
Pg 429 Lines 13-25 – The govt will specify which Doctors can write an end of life order.
PG 430 Lines 11-15 The Govt will decide what level of treatment you will have at end of life
(NOTE FROM RJ: The above really does give the government the authority to determine who lives and dies, and when. A government bureaucrat really will be making this decision for you and your loved ones.)
Pg 469 – Community Based Home Medical Services=Non profit orgs. Hello, ACORN Medical Svcs here!!?
Pg 472 Lines 14-17 PAYMENT TO COMMUNITY-BASED ORG. 1 monthly payment to a community-based org. Like ACORN?
Pg 489 Sec 1308 The Govt will cover Marriage & Family therapy. They will insert Government into your marriage. Pg 494-498 Govt will cover Mental Health Svcs including defining, creating, rationing those svcs
PG 502 Sec 1181 Center for Comparative Effectiveness Research Established. – Hello Big Brother – Literally.
Pg 503 Lines 13-19 Gov’t will build registries and data networks from YOUR electronic med records.
Pg 503 lines 21-25 Gov’t may secure data directly from any depart or agency of the US including your data.
Pg 504 Lines 6-10 The “Center” will collect data both published & unpublished (that means public & your private info)
PG 506 Lines 19-21 The Center will recommend policies that would allow for public access of data.
PG 518 Lines 21-25 The Commission will have input from HC consumer reps – Can you say unions & ACORN?
PG 524 18-22 Comparative Effectiveness Research Trust Fund set up. More taxes for ALL.
PG 621 Lines 20-25 Gov’t will define what Quality means in HC. Since when does Gov’t know about quality?
Pg 622 Lines 2-9 To pay for the Quality Standards, Govt will transfer $$ from to other Govt Trust Funds. More Taxes.
PG 624 “Quality” measures shall be designed to assess outcomes & functional status of patients.
PG 624 “Quality” measures shall be designed to profile you including race, age, gender, place of residence, etc
Pg 628 Sec 1443 Gov’t will give “Multi-Stake Holders” Pre-Rule Making input into Selection of “Quality” Measures.
Pg 630 9-24/631 1-9 Those Multi-stake holder groups incl. Unions & groups like ACORN deciding HC quality.
Pg 632 Lines 14-25 The Gov’t may implement any “Quality measure” of HC Services as they see fit.
PG 633 14-25/ 634 1-9 The Secretary may issue non-endorsed “Quality Measures” for Physician Services & Dialysis Services.
Pg 635 to 653 Physicians Payments Sunshine Provision – Gov’t wants to shine sunlight on Docs but not Govt.
Pg 654-659 Public Reporting on Health Care-Associated Infections – Looks okay.
PG 660-671 Doctors in Residency – Gov’t will tell you where your residency will be, thus where you’ll live.
Pg 676-686 Gov’t will regulate hospitals in EVERY aspect of residency programs, incl. teaching hospitals.
Pg 686-700 Increased Funding to Fight Waste, Fraud, and Abuse. You mean like the Gov’t with an $18 million website?
PGs 701-704 Sec 1619 If your part of HC plan isn’t in Gov’t HC Exchange but you qualify for Fed aid, no payment.
PG 705-709 SEC. 1128 If Secr gets complaints (ACORN) on HC provider or supplier, Gov’t can do background check.
PG 711 Lines 8-14 The Secretary has broad powers to deny HC providers/ suppliers admittance into HC Exchange. Your doctor could be thrown out of business.
Pg 719-720 Sec 1637 ANY Doctor who orders durable med equip or home med services MUST be enrolled in Medicare.
PG 722 Sec 1639 Gov’t MANDATES Doctors must have face to face with patient to certify patient for Home Health Svcs.
PG 724 23-25 PG 725 1-5 The same Gov’t certifications will apply to Medicaid & CHIP (your kids)
PG 724 Lines 16-22 Gov’t reserves rt to apply face to face certification for patient to ANY other HC service.
Pg 735 lines 16-25 For law enforce. proposes the Secretary-HHS will give Atty General access to ALL data.
PG 740-757 Gov’t sets guidelines for subsidizing the uninsured (Thats your tax dollars people)
Pg 757-762 Fed gov’t will shift burden of payments to Disproportionate Share Hospitals (DSH) to States. (Taxes)
Pg 763 1-8 No DS/EA hospitals will be paid unless they provide services without regard to national origin
Pg 765 Sec 1711 Gov’t will require Preventative Services including vaccines. (Choice?)
Pg 768 Sec 1713 Gov’t – Nurse Home Visitation Svcs (Hello union paybacks)
Pg 769 11-14 Nurse Home Visit Svcs include-economic self-sufficiency, employ adv, school-readiness.
Pg 769 3-5 Nurse Home Visit Services – “increasing birth intervals between pregnancies.” Govt ABORTIONS anyone
Pg 770 SEC 1714 Fed Gov’t mandates eligibility for State Family Planning Services. Abortion & State Sovereign.
Pg 789-797 Gov’t will set, mandate drug prices, controlling which drugs brought to market. Bye innovation.
Pgs 797-800 SEC. 1744 PAYMENTS for graduate medical education. The government will now control Drs’ education.
PG 801 Sec 1751 The Govt will decide which Health care conditions will be paid. Say RATION!
Pg 810 SEC. 1759. Billing Agents, clearinghouses, etc req. to register. Gov’t takes over private payment sys.
Pg 820-824 Sec 1801 Govt will identify individ. ineligible for subsidies. Will access all personal financial information.
Pg 824-829 SEC. 1802. Govt Sets up Comparative Effectiveness Research Trust Fund. Another tax black hole.
PG 829-833 Gov’t will impose a fee on ALL private health ins. plans incl. self insured to pay for Trust Fund!
PG 835 11-13 fees imposed by Gov’t for Trust Fund shall be treated as if they were taxes.
Pg 838-840 Gov’t will design & implement Home Visitation Program for families with young kids & families expect kids.
PG 844-845 This Home Visitation Prog. includes Gov’t coming into your house & telling you how to parent!!!
Pg 859 Gov’t will establish a Public Health Fund at a cost of $88,800,000,000. Yes that’s Billion.
Pg 865 The Gov’t will MANDATE the establishment of a National Health Service Corps.
PG 865 to 876 The NHS Corps is a program where Drs. perform mandatory HC for 2yrs for part loan repayment.
PG 876-892 The govt takes over the education of our Med students and Drs.
PG 898 The Govt will establish a Public Health Workforce Corps to ensure supply of public health prof.
PG 898 The Public health workforce corps shall consist of civilian employees of the U.S. as Secretary deems.
PG 898 The Public health workforce corps shall consist of officers of Regular & Reserve Corps of Service.
PG 900 The Public Health Workforce Corps includes veterinarians.
PG 901 The Public Health Workforce Corps WILL include commissioned Regular & Reserve Officers. HC Draft?
PG 910 The Govt will develop, build & run Public Health Training Centers.
PG 913-914 Govt starts a HC affirmative action program thru guise of diversity scholarships.
PG 915 SEC. 2251. Govt MANDDATES Cultural & linguistic competency training for HC professionals.
Pg 932 The Govt will estab Preventative & Wellness Trust fund- initial cost of $30,800,000,000-Billion.
PG 935 21-22 Govt will identify specific goals & objectives for prevention & wellness activities. Control YOU!!
PG 936 Govt will develop “Healthy People & National Public Health Perform. Standards” Tell me what to eat?
PG 942 Lines 22-25 More Gov’t? Offices of Surgeon General -Public Health Svc, Minority Health, Women’s Health
PG 950- 980 BIG GOV’T core pub health infrastructure including workforce capacity, lab systems; health info sys, etc
PG 993 Gov’t will establish school based health clinics. Your kids won’t have a chance.
PG 994 School Based Health Clinic will be integrated into the school environment. Say GOVT Brainwash!
PG 1001 The Govt will establish a National Medical Device Registry. Will you be tracked?
Mathew D. Staver*
Founder and Chairman Dean and Professor of Law
Liberty Counsel Liberty University School of Law
Offices in Florida, Virginia and the District of Columbia, Lynchburg, Virginia
(800) 671-1776 – Telephone (434) 592-5300 – Telephone> www.LC.org (http://www.LC.org)
www.law.liberty.edu (http://www.law.liberty.edu)

[evildick]

I was making comments on things going on right now and how they are similar to past events. Hitler was a psychopathic nut job but if you take away his hostile takeovers and mass killings then I'm sure many power crazy politician agree with his policies even if they would never admit it.

What freedoms where you afraid Bush was going to take away?

- Bush did the "hostile takeovers and mass killings" too. And no one compares him to Hitler. And he's not, but he's almost right up there with him.

- Bush implimented Phone Tapping Policy and E-mails can be read without permission policy. And many more, no more privacy policies.
No one is safe from these policies.

National Security. At what cost?

I'm for National Security, but not at any cost.

[evildick]

I think people are just afraid of losing their Healthcare.

But you don't understand, that you will have whatever Healthcare you want.

If you have money, you pay for it,
if you don't, you get it free.

But as I have said before, I'm beating a dead horse. :sFun_DeadHorse:

All I have to say, is that I live in a counrty with free healthcare, and I'm very happy for it. If most Americans are afraid of change, thats their problem. :doh: I'm for a "better tomarrow", not a "Dark Ages" tomarrow.

I hope for the safety of all those with not healthcare, and that they may never get sick. Or they will be screwed by a system that is only benificial to people with money.

And I thought everyone like Robin Hood.
"Steel from the rich, to give to the poor."

[||§§||Dr.H]

You are the perfect example of the way they want people to think. They want you to think that free health care is good and rich people are bad. They do not want you to think about how they plan to give you your free health care because while it may seem cost wise free even though people will still pay for it you have to realize the laws and policies that go with this cost free health care cost you a lot of personal freedom.

I agree you are beating a dead horse because all you are saying is that free is good and everyone having health care is good but you have no grasp on the cause and effect of doing that in a nation that is the size of the United States and build the way it is. Your countries free health care may be functioning even if it has problems but look at how many states alone here are larger in size and population than that of your country of choice..

For example would you say you'd be willing to give up your right to vote on how your town uses your taxes if they are willing to mow your yard for you for free from now on since many people can not afford to have their lawn mowed for them and they are unable to do it easily themselves? You think sure free is good right and then you find out that they raised your taxes not only to pay for the law mowing but they raised it to cover projects they want to do and oh right you gave away your right to do anything about that.

The Democrats are willing to play dirty in a way the Republicans never did. They spent years of protests and media and movies to convince the public that the past administration was evil and bad and "change" was good while that administration never defended itself because they believed it was the peoples right to say or believe as they choose.
Now that they have won most of Washington they are turning their machine around to vilify the public for protesting the same way they did for years. Now the public is called stupid and mobs?? Is anyone not tired of the do as I say but not as I do attitude going on? That is a big part of my concern with the current administration.

Just because you are not rich and neither am I that does not mean all rich people are crooks and evil bad guys. Most are just hard working people who want a better life for themselves and are willing to work their asses off to do it. They also create new companies and jobs for our economy to grow. But since they have things people do not because people don't want to work as hard as they do then people figure that's unfair and they deserve some of that money for sitting on their asses while most the "rich" or upper class people are working late nights. A flat tax would fix all of those problems.


Ok you do know how war works right? We did not do any hostile takeovers of any countries. Do we own any of those countries right now? No. There are always civilian casualties in war and the fact that the people we are currently fighting dress up as and use civilian as cover means more death but there are less civilian deaths than any other large wars. Where the hell are all these "mass killings" we are doing that you talk about? I'm sure you think Sadam was a hell of a guy and it was ok if he terrorize, gassed and killed his own people as long as the U.S. wasn't there and he didn't have any weapons of mass destruction he should have been left to his happy little playground?

Also I state again I did not compare him to Hitler I am compairing some of his policies and actions to certain polices that happened during Hitlers reign. Compairing administrations is not compairing people so try to focus please.

If they tapped people of interest but it never effected them in any way if they were regular people then how is that worse than Obama wanting to effect your freedom directly? You also want National security but only if we play nicey nice? We have some of the weakest National Security in the world. Our security is almost completely based on our Intelligence and Technology. Do you think it would be ok if we followed other countries leads and put up barb wire fence boarders and had the army protecting all boarders, docks and airports? By the way Obama is keeping most of Bushes policies on Security and what the heck do I care if someone reads my email which I doubt they ever will since even if they did they wouldn't care while Obama plans to effect me in many more personal ways.

[||§§||Dr.H]

Encase you've misunderstood anything I've said as a do nothing attitude I want to restate my point of view quick.

We NEED Health Care reform, we NEED to lower Health Care costs, we NEED to have an insurance option for the uninsured, we NEED to fix malpractice lawsuit problems, we DO NOT need full socialistic Health Care.

For a visual. If you took a line and on one side at 0 was us doing nothing for Health Care, this is where 85% of Americans are insured but pay to much. On the other end is 100 with full government controlled Health Care and eventual disassemble of the private Health Care system. What we need is to find a plan that gets as close to 50 as we can so that the old system is updated but not destroyed while there is a new public option for the uninsured, I personally think the government rebating the insurance companies to cover the uninsured is better than the government trying to run their own plan.

The problem is that the current administration is running headlong trying to get a plan out as close to the 100 side as they can as fast as they can. What is wrong with taking time to have the Democrat and Republicans work out a plan together that we are sure is the best for us? Why do we have to rush into a full Democratic plan that has been tossed together in a matter of months? Why does this have to happen right when we are in a traumatic time period when our economy is in shambles?? There can be no good reasons for this except them trying to sneak something past the American public.

Last night Obama said:
“I don't want the folks who created the mess to do a lot of talking. I want them to get out of the way so we can clean up the mess,” They are saying that right wing people are being organized by lobbyists to harass Democrats in town hall meeting but I kinda find that hard to believe. How do you define the line? Is a disappointed American automatically called right wing if they disagree with the other side? Even if they did organize there is nothing wrong with that, the Democrats are just mad people stole a play from their playbook.
I've read some Democratic fan blogs and man these people are nasty, they think they're right 100% at least I'm in the middle in my views, that's why I'm not republican. All they do is make fun of and belittle, while wanting violence?? It's odd that both sides are calling the other Nazis lol I swear our country is doing worse than ever. I don't want either party to have complete control over us.

[||§§||zezura]

obama is spending mroe than any other president ever has.

bush spent money at about 63 mp4, obama spends at 174 mph. and no youtube aint the only source, but its the easiest for a dem to understand
YouTube - The National Debt Road Trip

[||§§||Dr.H]

Lol some Youtube is obviously crap while some is great stuff, it's a give and take since most of it is user made but I will say Zezura that that is a good video. I thoroughly enjoyed it!

[evildick]

You are the perfect example of the way they want people to think. They want you to think that free health care is good and rich people are bad.

I know free healthcare isn't free. Most of the budget comes from taxes.
But for the sake of not scaring people, we leave the taxes as they are. Because obviously everyone is scared of paying more taxes. LOL

The US has a military budget of approximatly $651.2 billion. :eek:
If they would spend only 25% of that budget on healthcare, most healthcare cost would be covered surely.

And if you add a small Tobacco and Gasoline Tax (don't be scared), then most certinantly all healthcare cost would be covered.

I know I would prefer to pay $2.50 instead of $2 for a pack of cigs, and $2 instead of 90 cents for a gallon of gas. If it gave me (and ALL) healthcare.
But thats just me. I'm not afraid to spent a little to gain alot.

Using your healthcare scale, I would rather have a 100 then 50. But 50 is at least a step in the right direction.

As a suggestion (with no offense intended), maybe you should try and speak to people in foreign countries with more "free" healthcare, and see what they think about this issue. Heck, I'd even go as far to say that you should try and speak to Americans living in foreign countries with healthcare, and see what they think.

And I wouldn't speak to military people, as they have their own healthcare with the military.

I just think that an outside view would be more imparcial then ours.
And I'm not suggesting that foreigners should make US policies. Just that, any good idea should be taken into account. No matter who gives it.

[||§§||Dr.H]

In CT the tax alone on cigs is $2 and was announced to go up again just last week. Gas Tax here I believe is 55c per Gallon. If these taxes can not even help us pay out state budgets how are they going to cover a health plan?

The U.S military is very busy in these hectic times and they are spread thin as it is. I'm on in the group of people who feels we should not cut our military spending when countries like Russia, China and North Korea are raising theirs. We would not be making a statement we would just be looking week. Did you know that Russia had Subs off our East Coast just past our water border last week? Yes they are allowed to but it kinda sounds like they are testing our new administration by pushing our buttons.

I think outside views are always important but policies can not be based on what works in countries that are competently different than we are. If a country thinks something works for them or is pretty good it doesn't mean that it will work for us and if they think their health care is good then give them the average insurance policy here and let them come here to get treated before so they can see if it's still the same and if they would be willing to give up our treatment to go back to theirs?


Using your healthcare scale, I would rather have a 100 then 50. But 50 is at least a step in the right direction.I understand you don't mind complete government control over certain choices in your life but that doesn't mean everyone here does or that the majority of Americans fee that government control is progressive or the step in the right direction. But I respect your right to voice your belief even if the current U.S. government is trying to silence ours.

[||§§||zezura]

anybody hear about the snitch list yet? the government has started a list online where u can "report" websites or individuals who are against the healthcare bill. i have no idea if its true or not, but its worth looking into.

if you are on that list, and u are sick, and the gov can decide if u live and die, what do u think they will do?

[||§§||Dr.H]

Zezura I posted some info about it on page 6 here, post 56 ;).

It's all about money and control, it always has been. Just like every other president Obama is giving benefits to companies and people who supported him and strong arming or blacklisting companies who voiced a different opinion. He is just doing in on a larger scale than any other president but that's the "Chicago Way" I guess.. People say that the Bush family had investments in companies that benefited from war while Obama is benefiting from us.. screw other people or screw your own it seems. I'm sure many countries feel we are getting what we deserve. A big haha suckers on us.

[||§§||zezura]

lol, well your posts are long and i just sorta skim over them, i dont rly read the whole thing most of the time here

[||§§||Dr.H]

lol, well your posts are long and i just sorta skim over them, i dont rly read the whole thing most of the time here

Lol np :sweat: I tend to have a lot to say and I'm sure most people don't even bother unless they are really interested in current politics. The fact you are interested at all says a lot about you :thumbsup2:.

[||§§||Kit]

Zez nice video! Too funny and informative.

[evildick]

if you are on that list, and u are sick, and the gov can decide if u live and die, what do u think they will do?

First off, I doubt the government would allow you to die because you are on THE LIST. Even people in prison get correct treatment. So that I would be allowed to die because of my views is idiotic on the governments part.

Second, if you want to REALLY be a part of this discussion, I think you should read all the post, so as to have a better understanding as to what is at stake on all sides of the discussion. (no offense, just feel you should read before making a decition)



Did you know that Russia had Subs off our East Coast just past our water border last week?

Russia and the US are always doing these types of things.

Did you know that the US sunk the Russian submarine K-141 Kursk on August 12, 2000. It was a misunderstanding, and that is why war was averted.


I understand you don't mind complete government control over certain choices in your life

I don't want ANYONE controlling my life. PERIOD. "Free Healthcare" dosen't mean that the government is going to say yes, no, or maybe to your treatment. That is a DOCTOR'S job. No government officail is going to be at your local clinic to supervise the Docs. They are Doctors and should have our confidence.

And if all the documentaries I watch are "left wing" propaganda, then who is to say that maybe the one posted is not "right wing" propaganda?
Do you know the guy who made that video that was posted?

I could be a catholic and make a pro condom video. And if you didn't know me, you'd say "Hey look at that anti-christ and his devil video". And little did you know, that I was catholic all along and just wanted to make the church some stock money.

As you told me, "you can't believe all that you see or hear".

Maybe the video is truthful and maybe it's not. But the same can be said for all videos and documentaries.

It's easy to say, left wing, right wing. I say "Screw the wings". We are all HUMANS and should be treated as such. PERIOD.......

[evildick]

Dr. H:
I know your an adult and I know I'm an adult, but some who comment aren't (no offense to them). They are young and still have alot to learn. When they are older, they will either have the same opinions, or have change them. So I don't take them all that serious (again no offense) but I do read them and try to see what the children and teens are learning in school and on the streets about having an education. (and I don't mean school education. I'm talking about being Educated, which is different)

Again, no offense to anyone. You just have some years to go before really understanding life. Some understand life earlier then others, some later. I know that until I turned about 21, I didn't understand some of the things my parents warned me about. (Not that they were always right) But now I see what they where saying on some issues.

[||§§||Dr.H]

Everyone's opinions change as their life experiences change, I wouldn't disregard the younger generations because they are becoming more politically active then ever. I've meet just as many ignorant adults who get their news from MSNBC as ignorant kids who learn from MTV.

While the video may seem like propaganda to many I wouldn't call it quite "right wing" it doesn't have that feeling that it could be complete BS that either of the extreme sides tend to. I wouldn't be surprised if it was accurate since we all know Obama is spending money like no one ever did before.

I'm pretty sure if the government ends up controlling the doctors pay, running the hospital boards and being the main insurance source then they will have a heck of a lot more say about your health care than you do.

Humans treat humans horrible.. I'd rather be treated as an American while I'm in America.

[evildick]

I want everyone to give their opinion.
Be kid, teen or adult.
Just know that each carries a different weight.

[||§§||Kit]

You know I'd be really interested to hear a doctor's opinion on all of this. I was thinking about that the other day. I wonder how it would affect their pay, insurance premiums, etc...

[evildick]

You know I'd be really interested to hear a doctor's opinion on all of this. I was thinking about that the other day. I wonder how it would affect their pay, insurance premiums, etc...

Yes I would also like to hear doctors opinions. But not just 1 or 2. I mean lots of them.

Maybe they can have a TV debate on this issue and bring in Docs from dirrerent places and specialties and see what they think.

And I don't think Docs should get bonuses. They have their pay (a good one at that).

Some Docs might save more lives because of luck, experience or just because they don't get many life threatening cases. A real Doc doesn't need to be getting bonuses for that. (in my opinion)

[||§§||Kit]

I totally agree about them not getting bonuses. In fact, I think the whole "bonus" thing is weird. Probably because I don't get them. But your'e right. If you do your job the way you're supposed to do it you shouldn't be entitled to any more money.

BTW I ♥ House!!!

Wait...did you put a joint in his hand??? Oh nevermind. It looked like a joint at first...LOL!!!

[evildick]

HAHAHAHAHHAHA

I should have. ;)